There's an old Johnny Cash album I like from Carnegie hall back in the 60's. At one point he talks on it about visiting Vietnam with his wife and giving concerts for the wounded. Some reporters asked him if that didn't make him a hawk. His reply was no, he wasn't a hawk, but he might just be a dove with claws.

I'm not much of a war hawk. I don't really care about Iraq, or Korea, or oil, or WMDs. But I also don't believe in being an ostritch. Trouble doesn't go away if you turn away and hide your head in the sand. I do care very strongly that Americans have died in Afghanistan, in Iraq. But I don't feel that pulling out and leaving a fledgling democracy to fall on it's ass is the way to respect their sacrifice either.

People have died, plenty of them innocent, many not so much so. There have been abuses. However, an important difference is those abuses have not been officially sanctioned. They have not been set up by people who practice tyranny and genocide, by a dictator who intentionally modeled his life on Josef Stalin, one of the most horrible monsters the last century had to offer. Does that excuse those abuses? Hell no. I suggest we hang the perpetrators of those abuses up by the toenails, and let their victims loose on them.

I don't believe in the reasons we gave for going into Iraq. Having WMDs now? Who cares. I care that he had them in the past. I care that he used them. I care that if he'd never had a single shell with mustard gas, what he did to his people was so horrific that he never, never should have been allowed to stay in power.

I hate the fact that we're fighting there. I would hate worse for it to be wasted. Ignore problems and they always come back to haunt you. Look at Afghanistan, look at the Korean War, look at what happened after we overthrew the government in Iran, when we set up Noriega in Panama, then left him alone, when we pledged help to Vietnam, then withdrew that promise at the French's request after WWII.

I say stay out of war whenever possible, but backing down at the wrong time costs more blood in the long run. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish with American blood. I'm not a good war hawk. I'm sure as hell not an ostritch. But I try like hell not to tear apart something I won't help any more than to say a few angry words. I know there's more than a couple of people at JU that are against the war, but try like hell to help soldiers out directly, wherever they can, without criticism. I don't always agree with them, but I hope that even if we don't agree, they might just be doves with claws.

Comments
on Apr 04, 2005
Saddam played Washington and Moscow off each other for years to get those WMDs he "had in the past." Should we punish the responsible governments now? Sanctions against Russia and we could bomb the Library of Congress, too.

Sheesh. We're mopping up our own mess with the blood of our own citizens.

on Apr 04, 2005
No use really. Right wingers will be right wingers. Even after their own government have admitted that their Intel was wrong, They still google assinine facts to support their political leader of choice. So much for the Osterich theory.
on Apr 04, 2005

our positions (yours and mine) aren't that far apart.  afghanistan is a perfect example of what happens when you abandon a situation intervention created.  which is why i'd feel a lot better about things there if the administration hadnt been so damned overly eager to involve itself in iraq before things were fully resolved in afghanistan. 

on Apr 05, 2005

Should we punish the responsible governments now?

What does this have to do with the article? Did he talk about Russia or suggest Grandfathering punishments? No. He talked about Saddam killing his own people. Have a trolling.

No use really. Right wingers will be right wingers. Even after their own government have admitted that their Intel was wrong, They still google assinine facts to support their political leader of choice. So much for the Osterich theory.

What does this have to do with the article? I won't bother trolling anonymous cowards.

Kingbee- I can whole heartedly agree that Afghanistan could have used and still could use more attention than it has received. Your comment actually applies tot he article and one of it's proposals. One might even suspect that you read the thing before commenting. Others could learn from your example. Insightful.

SPC NBS - Well Frankly, I am a hawk (you knew that already) but I have great amounts of respect for those citizens who actually support the troops here in Iraq even while disagreeing politically. They do more than just pay lip service to this ideal they actually live it. We get lots of care packages and letters of support from folks who oppose all wars. In reality these people tend to get more letters of thanks from the soldiers here than others do as they have taken an additional step and overcome the tendency to hate the soldier because they hate the war. Hell of an article.

on Apr 05, 2005
I guess the important thing now is to draw lessons from what happened. A current leader in our fight against Terrorism admitted that this is a war "carried out in the shadows" . It does make more sense to deploy troops that stay "in the shadows", rather than conventional ones that can be vulnerable to enemy guerilla tactics. If we're to sustain this fight, we have to think "out of the box" early on. We could save more lives on our side.
on Apr 05, 2005
I really liked this article.

I suppose I am very much a dove (although I won't say that I'm against all war). However, I have great respect for our military...we even have soldiers serving faithfully in Iraq who do not agree with the war. They do their (tough and sometimes heartbreaking) jobs because of a sense of duty and pride and love of country, and that makes me feel completely awed and humbled. You guys bring much credit to our country...doing what you are called to do (at home and abroad) regardless of your political beliefs or stance on the Iraq war or any other.

Thank you.
on Apr 05, 2005
We're mopping up our own mess with the blood of our own citizens.


Yes, but it's largely caused because we didn't act when we should have. How many people died under sanctions because we didn't have the balls to finish the job in '91? I agree we're responsible for a large part of what we get into, sometimes for the wrong reasons. However, pulling out early doesn't seem to help much either. I think the WMD thing as a reason to go in was bogus. But I don't think that we're wrong to be there. Oh yeah, and not the Library......Never the libraries (not while there's still amnesty days for late fees.)

They still google assinine facts to support their political leader of choice


Even after their own government have admitted that their Intel was wrong,


Did ya see my previous article? Link

I do support Bush. I don't always agree with him, but I have a lot of respect for him, something I can't say about a number of other political leaders. However, that wasn't mentioned in the article. Nor, if you noticed do I spend a lot of time google whacking anything other than humerous pictures. I know damned well I'm putting forth an opinion. And all the justification in the world won't argue you to my position. Remember Mark Twain's line. "lies, damned lies, and statistics."



afghanistan is a perfect example of what happens when you abandon a situation intervention created.


Exactly.

Hell of an article.


I really liked this article.


Thank you, and thank you, and thanks to y'all that had the patience to sit through this reply. My basic position is I'm against unnecessary war. Not war, unnecessary war. I'm also against waiting and having a messy war, letting people suffer, because we lack the political courage to act earlier.

And approve or disapprove of our actions as a nation, be it war, be it support, intervention, what have you, once we're involved, I am completely against leaving people to hang in the wind, be they soldiers, be they fledgling governments, be they leaders or the people under those governments. To vary the old adage, when you change a life, you are responsible for it.
on Apr 05, 2005
Hell, I just like the mention of Johnny Cash and the post is good by the by.

I walk the line in a ring of fire so I don't end up in Folsom Prison with the blues in a cell with a boy named Sue who sings a ballad about Ira Hayes and contrasts it with Ghostriders in the Sky who sing about Cocaine Blues while the water is Five Feet High and Rising drowning a Bullrider who Hurts.
(There I think I included all the titles of my favorite Cash songs but all Cash is good in my book.)

- GX
on Apr 05, 2005
afghanistan is a perfect example of what happens when you abandon a situation intervention created. which is why i'd feel a lot better about things there if the administration hadnt been so damned overly eager to involve itself in iraq before things were fully resolved in afghanistan


You know, I'm about buzzed enough to come out and give my opinion.
We fucked up. We shoulda taken care of shit in Afghanistan before we went looking to kick ass in Iraq. We have too, too much on our plate right now, and we're killing American soldiers because of it. Yes, war is go fucking awful and lives will be lost.....but jesus, be responsible with those lives, will ya? We went in half cocked, and now our citizens are paying the price.

Just my 2 cents.
on Apr 05, 2005
Hell, I just like the mention of Johnny Cash


As long as you quote it One Piece at a Time, and don't hide behind a Long Black Veil, or forget to Remember the Alamo, then I think you've Been Everywhere, Man. I Won't Back Down, or I'll get Hurt. Possibly by a Mean-eyed Cat named Johnny Yuma.

The Man in Black rules, and I wish like hell that he and June were still alive. Oh well, I guess it's funny, but I Guess Things Happen That Way........
on Apr 05, 2005
As long as you quote it One Piece at a Time,


I just downloaded that tonight.
I had it on CD, and the CD fried.

What a man......
on Apr 05, 2005
I had it on CD, and the CD fried.


Arkk.....that would get anyone depressed. Quick, apply Hank Williams and whiskey, then chase it with Willie and tequilla.

Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker are allowed, as are angry women of rock, be it old Joplin tunes (gin I think), Debbie Harry(Sex on the Beach), or Meredith Brooks and Alanis Morissette (Vodka, or maybe Johnny Walker, mixed with something bitter underneath), but under no circumstances apply someone like Brittany Spears, or Christina Aguillera,(a couple of fruity lite wine coolers, but taken as a suppository.)